How difficult is is for men to understand a woman's perpective

Bond of Perfection

Chapter Three

Discussion Group 2

David Purdy, Taisali Leuluai, Duoc Le

St Jane de Chantal - Oil on Canvas, St Louis Visitation

What strikes you / what is new?

The materials covered in Bond of Perfection are at times difficult to read. We’re men reading this book, and sharing the perspective of men, how would women react to reading this book?

Aristotle maintained that “men are always superior, women are not equal to men.” However, among Christians and especially in a monastic life there is no distinction in terms of age or gender.

Is it possible to live a perfect celibate life in monastic life? It’s been proven (cf. pg 12, a Document): Acts of Paul and Tecla. “In the new dispensation, men and women were partners.” Women in monastic life are liberated from the stereotypes of society (inferior to men).

Threefold aspect of Relationships from Jeanne de Chantal: a) relationship with God; b) relationship with humans (seen in her relationship with Francis); c) relationship with herself. What Jeanne learns from this experience is that in order to perfect the human relationship, one must have a deep intimate relationship with God.

Christian Relationships: twofold dimension (p. 202): Divine Relationship (our relationship with God and God’s relationship with us); Human Relationship

In the introduction to the book, Wendy Wright describes how Francis understood the need for such a spiritual friendship and how he drew boundaries. When dealing with any penitent who was a woman he would begin the spiritual direction relationship by placing the relationship/dialogue in the hands of Our Lady and ask that other than Christ, no other flames be ignited.

• Understanding Marriage – the sharing of oneself to the other; giving oneself to the other for God.
• Understanding Celibacy – celebrates the solitude of the person: Total abandonment for God; Reserving oneself for God

The Ultimate Christian Spiritual Friendship (pg 11) is above distinction of genders. Cf. Galatians 3:27: For as many of you were baptized into Christ, put on Christ.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


What was confirmed?

It is impossible to have a perfect human relationship without having an intimate relationship with God. That divine relationship is incorporated and transforms the human relationship.

In the Contemplative life, the ending goal is love of God -- through love of neighbor and by emptying oneself for the other.

From other groups:
Life and death
Stripping away,
Spiritual friendship in the 21st century

Submitted by Duoc Le 11/24/09

Human love is implicated in divine love

Bond of Perfection
Chapter-by-Chapter

Group Three:
Brian Rebholtz
Tresphord Chisanga
Sung Han Lee

What’s New

We were struck by Wend Wright’s analysis of why male-female spiritual friendships were so deeply formative. Her argument, basically, is that in a world where male-female interactions are limited and proscribed, cultivating a friendship outside those boundaries enables both parties to radically depart from their standard ways of relating. It is part of the contemplative process of stripping away layers of self and opening to Christ.

The “language of desire” and the “language of death” are insightful categories for describing the contemplative language of relating to God. This was especially insightful for Sung Han, who was challenged by the notion of using “death” as a metaphoric process of encountering God.

What’s Challenging

Is spiritual friendship the trans-historical category W. Wright thinks it is? It seems to us that St. Francis and St. Jane de Chantal may be developing a very particular theology of spiritual friendship that cannot be applied retroactively to earlier examples of male-female relationships among celibates/vowed religious.

Is the notion of a friendship “totally consecrated to God” too narrow? It seems to us that St. Francis and St. Jane de Chantal were able to focus so narrowly on the spiritual life because they were 1) apart for such long periods of time and 2) communicating through letters, which is a very distinct medium of interaction. But what if St. F and St. J had lived in the same town their whole lives? Could they have discussed trivial matters like the weather and discussed their lives casually over a meal and still be considered true spiritual friends? It seems that the model being offered negates many aspects of mundane, everyday life as being part of the God-centered life.

What’s Confirming

We appreciated W. Wright’s understanding of human love and divine love. Ultimately, Wright argues that these two realities cannot be separated. Human love is implicated in divine love, for divine love is its source, not its opposite.

Submitted by Brian Rebholtz
Photo by Joe Boenzi: Brian Rebholtz in class (22 October 2009)

Forty years of darkness

Group 1 
Seung Yong Yi, Joseph Pampackal and Jim Heuser

November 17, 2009

Bond of Perfection, chapter 4

(1) What strikes us from the reading?

Once more, the prolonged – 40 years – darkness that Jane experienced, and that she lived through with such apparent fidelity is amazing to us.  She seemed to make real in her life the reflection of Francis at the close of his Treatise on the Love of God:  “Mount Calvary is the mountain of lovers … Love and death are so mingled in Our Savior’s Passion that we cannot have one in our heart without the other.” (as quoted on p. 161)

The sequence of letters between Francis and Jane when she was on retreat in May 1616 … through which they achieved a remarkable and loving detachment from each other and a closer attachment to God, is very interesting.  Wendy Wright comments that he “who had fueled and increased her love of God was now the only barrier between her and the total surrender that she sought to achieve.” (p. 171)

(2) How does this reading present something new?

Wendy indicates, “In the seventeenth century, the image of the perfect follower of Christ was that of a lover.” (p. 161)  That image does not seem to readily predominate today … and yet it is quite evocative and fruitful, and perhaps might be more reclaimed and emphasized.

Wendy makes the comment on page 162 that “[p]erfect love of God implied a growing independence from the necessity for human support.”  This line gave rise to some discussion among us … with diverse understandings and views!

“ … one must look to God as the one against whom the offense was committed, rather than to oneself as the one committing it.” (Francis to Jane, p. 174)  This is profound advice, so accurately directed to Jane’s anxiety about the baptism of her grandchild, and so effective in helping her move on.  It is applicable to all of us as well whenever we engage in an examen.

At their final encounter in Lyon, it was surprising that, while Jane had a profound desire to speak of matters of conscience, Francis directs her to instead speak of matters relating to the Visitation Congregation … and subsequently, due to Francis’ death, she can only make her review of conscience before his dead body in Annecy.

(3) What was confirming for us in the reading?

“This evening affirm that you have renounced all the virtues, desiring them only in the measure that God gives them to you and not wanting to be concerned to acquire them except to the extent that his goodness will use you in this way according to his will.” (Francis to Jane, p. 170)  This confirms for us that, while the Christian life involves a daily striving to practice the virtues of Jesus Christ, we need be oriented not to self-perfection but rather to the living of virtues that will make us useful to others in the plan of God.

Perfection in the sense of sanctity is not achieved quickly … but rather the outcome of a long, protracted struggle.  Jane’s life bears witness to that.  And Wendy indicates that Jane knew this to be the reality of Francis as well: “[she] understood the motives behind his actions and the heroic struggle that lay behind his manifestation of sanctity.” (p. 195)

Submitted by Jim Heuser

God-centered relationships

Bond of Perfection 

Chapter-by-Chapter

Group Three:
Brian Rebholtz
Tresphord Chisanga
Sung Han Lee

What Struck Us/What was New?

Wendy Wright did a good job cutting through the hagiography of Jane de Chantal in order to show the effect of St. Francis de Sales death in her spiritual life. This allowed us to see deep grieving and mourning within the context of a saintly life, rather than a detached coolness and supernatural aridity.

We were dismayed at the description of Francis de Sales and Jane de Chantal’s last conference. Francis’ decision not to allow Jane discuss her matters of conscience seemed like a tragic pastoral oversight. We were not convinced by Wright’s attempt to map this action to Jane’s need for further spiritual growth and separation.

The mere fact that correspondence defined there relationship is amazing. Francis and Jane went three years without seeing each other, and yet their relationship flourished.

We were amused by the politics of the Visitation Congregation. Although W. Wright does not spend too much time on this, she does mention that Jane and Francis wrestled with the fact that at least one rich woman was placed in the congregation by her family regardless of vocation or inclination. Moreover, because of her wealth she was given the status of “foundress” and entitled to special treatment. This shows that even though two spiritual masters were at the helm of the Congregation of the Visitation, the community still had to deal with human failing and self-centeredness on a daily basis!

We notice that there is a tension between Francis’ piety and Jane’s piety. Jane always longed for more contemplative prayer and more interior silence, whereas Francis always directed his prayer life into imagery and the created world. Jane and Francis never truly reconcile this point of debate.

What was Confirmed?

The possibility of relationships centered on God. Tresphord was especially intrigued by the idea that any relationship can benefit by becoming God-centered, not just saintly relationships. Sung Han was interested in whether or not the Korean Evangelical Holiness Church could benefit from a stronger emphasis on finding God in all relationships and less emphasis on the relational hierarchy so ingrained in Korean culture.

Spiritual Parenthood. St. Jane de Chantal used numerous images and metaphors taken from her experience as a mother. This was refreshing for us, and it suggested that the life of parenthood was actually a valid and useful model for the spiritual life, rather than something to be discarded and left behind by those who are “serious” about spirituality.

Submitted by Brian Rebholtz
Photo by Joe Boenzi: Salesians scholars Grace McCormack, Roberta Brown, Wendy Wright

How useful it is to live the virtues!

Bond of Perfection

Chapter Three

Group 2 (David Purdy, Taisali Leuluai, Duoc Le)

What strikes you?
·      159-169 Final letter came from Francis
o   Negative or positive Friendship? Seems like it was positive
·      There’s a deep transformation indicated for Jane the final letters
·      We sense a very striking stage of maturity of their love and friendship
·      Holy Naked
o   “to give fully to God until God reclothes you.”
o   Total self surrender to God
·      Despite Francis’ death, their love doesn’t end, but enter into a new stage
·      Smooth Founding of Congregation
o   Became well-known
o   Organic Founding by two inspired women
o   Support of local Bishop
o 
·      Marie-Aymee asked to join the Congregation on her death bed, profession presided over by Francis.

Question:
·      Change in Salutation from my dearest daughter to my dear Mother?  What does this indicate?
·      Was this a negative or positive

What’s new?

What was confirmed?
·      Detachment of friendship is so painful

Mt. Calvary – Mt. of the lovers.
Politics of the order
Spiritual Parenthood
161 Image of Lover

170 Says “this evening you have renounced all the virtues” – living virtues that is useful for others.

Submitted by Duoc Le for 17 November 2009

Relational or goal-driven?

Bond of Perfection

Chapter Three

Discussion Group 2:

Taisali Leuluai

David Purdy

Duoc Le

1. What struck us and what’s new?

General

• Chapter is divided into 3 sections
• Author goes into defining love and friendship through history and traditions
• The second section the biography continues about Jane and the founding of her congregation, this is the time when she’s a novice
• “Epthemia” is a new term for us – lust
• “A friend can encourage the practice of Devout life”

The Language of Friendship

• Freedom of expressing one’s love…
• Friendship: Utilitarian, pleasure, virtue
• Francis suggested certain letters not to be seen (p151)
• Francis starts using suspicious language p151.
• The idea of particular friendships can descend into particular levels
• Discussion on the difference between nudity and nakedness

Suspicion

• Human concern, that his (Francis’s) letters to her might be misinterpreted
• Some of these letters the tone are risky
• Page 103: Confusion of the relationship
  

Further Reflections

• Do I have a Jane Chantal in my life?
• Why do we act so suspicious when we read this?  Why this suspicion, maybe because of our fallen human nature.
• Do I have that sort of supportive friendship in my life that I can say anything I want?

2. How is this new? (See above)

3. What was the reading confirming for you.

Spiritual friendship between two celibates is possible, but it can be risky. While intimacy is possible within spiritual friendships, it remains a challenge at many levels and can easily be misinterpreted.

Francis’ approach to women demonstrates that Francis knows the psychology of women. He recognizes that women are more relational then men, and are not primarily objective-oriented or goal-driven

Francis and Jane are real examples. They show us that such intimate and holy relationships can exist. The mere fact that these dear friends are both declared saints leads us to this conclusion.

Submitted by Duoc Van Le

Focus on the inner person

Bond of Perfection

Chapter 3

Discussion Group 1:

Jim Heuser, Seung Yong, Joseph Pampackal

Wendy M. Wright - Author of Bond of Perfection

What struck me from the reading?

Struck by the analysis of Christian view of friendship through the centuries to see the diverse views in the Christian tradition. There was one view of friendship that is distrustful and suspicious and views friendship as dangerous and the second view that sees friendship as an encounter with God and views it in a positive way. Friendship between human beings should be stimulated by divine love and in this sense it is an experience of divine love and something very positive.

It is striking that Francis guides Jane to focus on the inner person and not the outer. Wendy writes that this was because Francis understood that it was the nature of women to focus on the outer. This, however, is a good advice for men as well in the present context and culture, in which the stress is on the external than the internal.

How is this reading new?

Jane had to go through adark pilgrimage with the invitation to abandon herself, strip herself, let go, and finally realize that God is enough for her. At the same time this is the time of the establishment of the Visitation and so a fruitful time for her in the sense of giving birth to the Congregation, forming the other women in a very gentle and loving way. While personally she experienced it as a dark night, it was very fruitful period of life for her.

Was there anything in it confirming?

Francis was a product of his time in the sense that he used the positive view of the love and relationship in the culture of his time and gave it a Christian dimension. She quotes him saying, it is very important to consider the historical era in which one writes.

It is confirming because we are products of history but we can take what is positive in the present culture and highlight its Christian dimensions.

Relationship patterns for Christians

Bond of Perfection

Chapter-by-Chapter

Group Three:
Brian Rebholtz
Tresphord Chisanga
Sung Han Lee

What’s New

Love is the highest virtue, but also the foundation of life. We have many opportunities to express love and love is shown in many different ways. But love is not an emotion or a feeling for St. Francis de Sales, love is an act of the human will. Love encompasses all aspects of a human being, not just emotions.

We were struck by the notion of working not for yourself, but to give yourself for the good of others. Does John Paul II’s theology of work connect here?

Contemplation leads to recognizing needs; Work, not for self but to give oneself for the good of others. Failure does not frighten as long as all is done for God’s love. St. Francis de Sales fails at numerous projects in his diocese. He attempts to get quality priests assigned to his French parishes by the King of France, he attempts to open a seminary and a school for the poor, he attempts to found an order of women for charitable service, but all these projects fail.

What’s Confirmed?

The ideal person for St. Francis de Sales is one who lives as a Christian in a relationship with the Triune God and the Church, and who cares about his or her place in Civil Society: Neighborhood, Work Place, Family. This is the opposite of Calvin’s notion of the Church being invisible and the State being visible. For Francis, the Civil Society is patterned on the Christian life of the Church.

Submitted by Brian Rebholtz
Photo by Joe Boenzi: From the vine came the grape

Direction that includes joy and everyday progess

Bond of Perfection

Chapter discussions

Group Three: 

Brian Rebholtz
Tresphord Chisanga
Sung Han Lee

The deeply mystical character of St. Francis and St. Jane de Chantal's friendship is surprising. Wendy Wright attempts to place these two figures within a larger tradition of contemplative, male-female frienships among Christians, but St. F and St. J seem to stand out. They are certainly no Abelard and Heloise. St. Francis even goes so far as to feel that St. Jane de Chantal is union with him when he celebrates the mass!

The romantic tone of their personal letters is also intriguing. Once again, Wendy Wright insists that the language was understood as "God-given and God-directed" but even so both St. J and St. F knew that they were breaking conventional manners of interaction. St. Francis especially was aware that if others found his letter from St. Jane de Chantal that their relationship would be misunderstood. We found it interesting that Wendy Wright is so quick to separate any sense of romantic fulfillment from the letters. Even without positing a physical relationship betwee the two, is it not conceivable that both St. F and St. J were able to express and explore their own natural longings for human relationship through their shared use of a mystical language of love and union?

What is New?

The distinction between nakedness and nudity is interesting, not only for its ribald character but also because St. Francis reverses what we would expect. Rather than make nudity the positive expression of embodiment, St. Francis makes nakedness the positive expression, drawing on the Genesis accounts to express a spirituality of being stripped bare before God.

Sung Han Lee mentioned that in Korea marriages are explicitly hierarchical. It was new for him to think of marriage as deeply rooted in friendship and mutuality.

St. Jane de Chantal's interest in apophatic spirituality is new. Her mixing with Carmelite women and her tendency to ecstatic states is a step outside of Salesian Spirituality. We found it interesting that this style of piety seems to distinguish her from St. Francis de Sales.

Also, we found St. Jane de Chantal's clear struggle with feminine culture and her rejection of beauty to set her apart from St. Francis in a hitherto unknown way. Indeed, St. Francis had to counsel her twice to relax her standards and allow for women to "be a little bit pretty." It is clear that St. Jane never fully embraced the world-affirming piety of St. Francis de Sales.

What resonates with our own journey?

We were deeply impressed with St. Francis and St. Jane's use of a rich matrix of feminine imagery to describe the spiritual life. We felt these images were both potent and accessible (even to men) and that they put a new and much needed perspective on Christian spiritual practice.

Likewise, we resonated with St. Francis' insistence that all relationships can be Christ-bearing relationships if both partners are attentive to that reality. In other words, friendship is in its deepest sense a spiritual discipline.

Lastly, we appreciated St. Francis de Sales' model of spiritual direction, which was not relegated to crisis-intervention, but also included a wider and more congenial pattern of interaction. For St. Francis, spiritual direction includes joy and everyday progress as well as crises and struggles, and we all felt that this is an aspect of spiritual direction that is often overlooked, especially now that so much spiritual direction has morphed in therapy rather than spiritual accompaniment.

Submitted by Brian Rebholtz

Photo by Joe Boenzi: Flowering PSR at Berkeley, 5 April 2007